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This thread is for discussing the in-game religion of the Aveyond series. :)

 

I'll start, with a thought I had a while ago:

 

In AP, AV2 and AV3, there's a lot of mention of a deity simply called "the goddess" (who may, or may not be the Oracle :P ) But in Av1, no one says anything about her, and instead they talk about various gods with powers over different aspects of life (the harvest, the sun, etc.).

I'm thinking that could be because AP, Av2 and Av3 mostly took place on the mainland, whereas Av1 took place on the Arishta Isles, which is quite a ways away.

 

Thoughts?

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Yes! *clappy hands*

 

Wow that thought about the Arishta Isles is quite intuitive, NEVER would have made that connection, but it makes complete sense, evolution-wise.

 

It's funny though because in Av2 we see that the Goddess is *real*, not just the product of superstition among the characters, which makes me wonder why she never revealed herself to the Arishta Isles, or involved herself in the culture there.

 

Similarly, in AV1 we see Haurvatat, goddess of healing. If she is real, why not show up on the mainland sometime?

 

The god of harvest, Ahurani, is mentioned but never makes an appearance. I think there might be another one that I'm forgetting.

 

In some real-world religions different gods have dominion over different regions. The gods/Goddess perhaps are unable to leave their territory.

 

Of course the Oracle appears in Aveyond, too, so IF the Goddess and the Oracle are really the same person, then that is the Goddess taking on a lesser role in another culture, allowing the local gods to govern, but still keeping tabs on what's going on, which is kinda cool.

 

Since the Aveyond universe ("Aia" ) is a magical one, and mystical events are presented as fact rather than a matter of faith, I feel like "religion" isn't really the best word here, but it works. Since everything is real there is never any argument about what anyone believes. Therefore, a crossover of religions could be a peaceful event, an exploration rather than a cause for war. I think this would make for an interesting game.

 

Idk am I taking this too far?

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Technically the Oracle never actually says she is the goddess - she just says "some would call me that" and leaves it at that.

 

My interpretation is that even though there's one main goddess, there are still lesser gods and goddesses in their religion. Like how Zeus is the king of the gods in Greek mythology, the goddess could be the most powerful of the Aian gods, but there could also be lesser deities.

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quasi-candid wrote:

It's funny though because in Av2 we see that the Goddess is *real*, not just the product of superstition among the characters, which makes me wonder why she never revealed herself to the Arishta Isles, or involved herself in the culture there.

 

This is true, but when we revisit the Arishta Isles in The Darkthrop Prophecy the goddess has donation boxes in pretty much every city. Now, this could just be because us players were already familiar with donation boxes and Amanda felt she should continue with that.

 

OR the goddess could have revealed herself to the Arishta Isles somewhere around the time of Aveyond 2.

 

Something tells me that the answer is the first option, but for the sake of this thread and explaining things let's go with option two.

 

But I would be more interested in learning about Hauvartat. I think that's the wrong spelling but I'm too lazy to scroll up. I would like to know more about her and what role she plays in the Aveyond faith/religion/belief system.

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Indra wrote:

when we revisit the Arishta Isles in The Darkthrop Prophecy the goddess has donation boxes in pretty much every city.

 

Well that... just... blows a big hole in that theory D:

 

However it's possible that, like you said, after the oracle revealed that she and the Goddess were the same person, maybe all the Arishta Isles people were so mind-blown that they immediately built her all those statues and donation boxes and apparently forgot about their other gods.

(She doesn't say she's the Goddess but she does admit to being the "mother of all".)

 

I think the fact that Haurvatat (and Ahurani) is so poorly-documented makes her all the more interesting. :D We never see her take on any administrative roles, she just kind of appears like a tooth fairy and blesses the party. Maybe she's more like an "angel of healing" than a "goddess of healing."

Ahurani, again, isn't seen at all, and all this only leaves us to wonder about what kind of hierarchy or pantheon they had going on.

 

Looking through the posts on the "name origins" thread, I think it's weird that things like the Apollo bow and Zeus armor existed, because presumably, the people in Aia don't believe in either Apollo or Zeus. However, the Greco-Roman pantheon has been incorporated into many fantasy worlds in the past without always being a religion. Maybe Apollo and/or Zeus and/or anyone else were actually real people in Aia.

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Indra wrote:

when we revisit the Arishta Isles in The Darkthrop Prophecy the goddess has donation boxes in pretty much every city.

There's even a goddess donation box in the DEMON REALM, mind you.

Either we have landed in an oddly very human-influenced society in the Demon Realm or the goddess is universally worshipped by everyone in the Aveyond-verse including the demons.

 

However it's possible that, like you said, after the oracle revealed that she and the Goddess were the same person, maybe all the Arishta Isles people were so mind-blown that they immediately built her all those statues and donation boxes and apparently forgot about their other gods.

 

Yeah, that. AV1 has been a rather quirky little oddball. It has a different belief system than AP, and then for some reason in AV2 ALL the AP stuff resurfaced and the stuff we knew in AV1 vanished. Heck, I was uninterested in AV2 and 3 at first because I saw no trace of AV1 in them beyond Thais and Te'ijal and Galahad showing up.

 

The one thing that makes AV1 different is that MAINLAND DO NOT EXIST.

 

My theory is like this: The goddess-worship is something that the Mainland people do. It was absent in AV1 because Arishta is separate from the Mainland and they had little to no contact with each other. Post-AV1 Arishta starts having major trade with Thais (the last remaining area of Mainland) because Rhen and Dameon grew up in Arishta.

 

Thais probably needs help with money/materials/manpower for rebuilding and then Rhen asks Sedona and Veldarah for help via Lars and Galahad or something. After all, Lars is the cousin of the Veldarah Empress and Galahad is very close to the Sedona king. Then some few years later, with the increased contact the goddess worship spreads over to Arishta too, and over time taking over the local beliefs.

 

The local deities, who are indeed quite real, well... I personally belief that they are gods of "lower rank" who are The Great Goddess's assistants or whatever. I mean, it's possible that everyone worships the same pantheon, but they just choose to worship different gods. Just like all those polytheistic religions out there. You have one leader of the gods and a whole bunch of other gods doing various things.

 

I think it's weird that things like the Apollo bow and Zeus armor existed, because presumably, the people in Aia don't believe in either Apollo or Zeus. However, the Greco-Roman pantheon has been incorporated into many fantasy worlds in the past without always being a religion. Maybe Apollo and/or Zeus and/or anyone else were actually real people in Aia.

I'd like to point out that these are the name descriptions for those items:

 

- Zeus Mail: Armor blessed by Zeus

- Apollo: A bow blessed by Apollo

- Archimedes: A hat blessed by Archimedes

 

So it would seem that Zeus, Apollo, and Archimedes are either priests with powers to bless or they are deities.

 

Aren't things just super messed-up now? Heh :P

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daeva_agas wrote:

So it would seem that Zeus, Apollo, and Archimedes are either priests with powers to bless or they are deities.

 

That seems like the most logical explanation. Maybe the names are coincidental, assuming the facts we've established about the religion are true. It's a possibility that Aian god/deity names happen to be similar in our universe.

 

Or there's more to the story than this. I honestly have no clue.

 

Aren't things just super messed-up now? Heh

 

Indeed they are :S

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Well... There's Acropolis in AV3, which is not-Greece. Those items are probably items blessed by the priests/mages from Acropolis. Or whatever the place's name was before it became "Acropolis".

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Acropolis, with its name and architecture, might indeed be intended to remind the player of Greece, therefore the acropolis-i priests/mages (rather priests than mages, I'd say, since we're talking about blessings) explanation could work. The only problem is Archimedes and Zeus mail and Apollo bow are all in AvII and AvII only, which means we would have to assume Acropolis (or even Eldrion) already existed before AvII and III.

Or, like d_a suggested in an earlier post, Zeus and Apollo etc. may be minor/local deities worshipped in one or several places of the Mainland after its "reconstruction", which fits more the item-blessing story, imo. From that basis, many explanations are possible: either the belief has been imported from the Arishta Isles (where there seemed to be no traces of any cult of the Godess) or from Acropolis (assuming the fact that Eldrion does exist during/prior to the events of AvII) or whatever.

 

A little something that might mess things up even more than they already are: I was curious about Ashera's Tomb and where that name could have come from, so I looked it up on Google and I found that Ashera(h) happens to be a mother godess of Semitic mythology, who used to be linked with the cult of Yahweh (national God of Israel) and was believed to have inspired/been equated with goddesses from other cultures (Hathor in Egypt and a certain Ashira in Arabia, among others).

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Lindrah wrote:

either the belief has been imported from the Arishta Isles (where there seemed to be no traces of any cult of the Godess) or from Acropolis (assuming the fact that Eldrion does exist during/prior to the events of AvII) or whatever.

 

Well, a possible explanation could be that Eldrion/the Acropolis are in early stages of their civilization, for lack of a better word, while Av2 is happening. Maybe these priests were around then, in the early part of the Acropolis' history.

 

Then there's the question of how these armors/weapons made it to the Av2 mainland/islands.

 

As for this whole Ashera's tomb thing . . . That really doesn't help clarify this whole situation. Now we're bringing in more and more mythologies into the mix. Maybe one of you can figure this out, but I'm stuck here.

 

((and an off-topic question, why does Thais change location and layout EVERY game?))

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@Indra: Aveyond is indeed a huge cultural and religious mess, but I don't think it's that illogical. After all, many beliefs coexisted at different stages of human history. As a matter of fact, peoples on one side of the world worshipped different gods than those of peoples from another side of the world and polytheistic, monotheistic or even animistic religions from different cultures often mixed up (eg. Isis the Egyptian goddess, who was adopted into the Greek pantheon in late Antiquity -fun fact: the name "Isidora" litteraly means "gift of Isis" and has greek roots-).

And let's not mention all those ancient civilizations whose beliefs have been forever lost or long forgotten, in favor of the emergence and then the precedence of monotheism over polytheism.

 

If we try and apply those events to the evolution of Aia in terms of religion, we could come up with something like this (do NOT take my word for it, it's just a messy theory) :

 

-------------------------------WARNING: HUGE RAMBLE BELOW-----------------------------------

*AP:

The Goddess is worshipped on the Mainland, possibly the only region of Aia where she decided to reveal herself, thus leaving the rest of the world -including the Aristha Isles and maybe Eldrion- in the ignorance of her existence (we could make here a comparison with the God in the Old testament, who chose the Israelites to be his people and led them to the promised land, where pagans worshipped other gods). Which may explain...

 

*Av1 (the "odd ball", as D_A rightfully calls it):

The Mainland was obliterated by Ahriman and the cult of the Goddess never reached the Isles, where people have therefore continued worshipping their own local deities (no valid comparison with any religious text, here, since 90% of the "Chosen people" of Aia have probably been killed; I'm just pointing out the fact that in other parts of Aia, people are still unaware of the Goddess's existence, pretty much like many peoples all over the world didn't know about the one and only God of Israelites, and just kept on worshipping their own). Thais and Mysten Far are the only remaining places of the Mainland. The priestesses live secluded from the rest of the world, and the Thaisian survivors are too busy rebuilding their city and struggling for life -between the wasted lands that are very likely to be non-farmable and the frequent attacks of demons since Ahriman released his daevas- to bother rebuilding a church or re-sculpting statues to the glory of a Goddess who let the Dark Lord destroy their lands.

Yet,there's an Oracle in the Aristha Isles, assisted by druids and priestesses, trying -I think- to maintain balance between good and evil.

Among other things, we learn throughout Rhen's quest about the existence of other deities beside the Goddess, such as Haurvatat (real: appears twice) or Ahurani (mentioned only), and who could be either lesser deities under the rule of the Goddess, or ancient deities whom the Aristhan people always worshipped.

I've often heard and read that gods take their power from their worshippers' faith in them, which roughly means that any god would be powerless in a certain place so long as there's no one in there to believe in them. My point being, the Goddess, IF she and the Oracle are one and the same, may only work as an oracle -and not a full-fledged major goddess- in Av1 because no one in the Isles knows/believes in her. Haurvatat, as opposed to the Oracle/Goddess, might be able to appear in front of the hero party and bless everyone exactly because there are people who worship her (maybe even among the heroes themselves).

Anyway, moving on to...

 

*Av2:

Back to basics: the rightful heir to the throne of Thais came back and with her the faith of the Thaisian survivors in the Goddess. Temples and statues were rebuilt, the cult restored and exported to the Aristha Isles -where Queen Rhen Pendragon grew up and which she decided to establish long-term trade relations with- and maybe Eldrion (if Eldrion already existed).

The Goddess took over the Aristha Isles and pushed the Isles old gods into the background, eventually. Over time, people have ditched the old beliefs and forgotten about vampires and whatnot

(another biblical comparison: in the New Testament, the apostles travelling all around the Mediterranean basin -Asia Minor, North Africa, Europe etc- and even to India to preach the Good News, converting little by little more and more people to christianism)

(apart from the emergence of christianism, polytheistic religions have gradually shrunk and disappeared in favor of the major monotheistic religions that are islam, christianism and judaism. Back when I was in high school, our philosophy teacher told us about the men sacrificing their old gods for one, unique and almighty God. In my opinion, same thing has been happening in the Aveyond-verse over the centuries)

Which finally leads us to...

 

*Av3:

In line with Av2, the Goddess has remained the main deity, in the Mainland, Eldrion AND the Arishta Isles. Ancient deities have definitely been ditched for good and now all there's left of them would be blessed items, whose history no one living remembers anymore. Civilizations like the Amazons' descendants from Veldt MIGHT have disappeared, and tombs of old gods -i.e. Ashera- and abandoned druid shrines may be only here as a reminder to the people of Aia that the "Mother of all" has taken over and is here to stay.

 

On a side-note: I had quite a WTF moment when I first saw the statue of the Goddess in the Demon Realm. I was like "How could demons even worship anything ?", and when I realised you had to steal from the donation box to get luck, I thought that maybe the statue was just there to mock the Goddess or something... But that's just me. And that has nothing to do with the rest...

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

My, that was long...

 

 

((to answer your off-topic question Indra: I've read somewhere on the forum that maybe the Mountain King might enjoy playing around with Aian regions' topography every once in a century :D ))

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My personal theory is this: The Oracle is an avatar for the Goddess. A human manifestation of sorts (just like the Hindu gods like to do). She has powers, but limited. At least not much compared to her true goddess form.

 

She chose to not involve herself too much with humans because she is "The Almighty". Just like how God in Christianity doesn't willy-nilly drop from upon high. He sends His prophets and angels and Jesus to do what needs to be done, and He only makes an appearance when it's a VERY special case. Haurvatat may be the equivalent of the Christian angels (and he/she even has an angel sprite).

 

As per AV2, we see that Thais is a pretty influential kingdom, so it would make sense that their beliefs spread to other regions. That's how cultures spread. Communication happen, and people trade beliefs and cultures through it.

 

Or, you know, this new belief makes so much more sense than the old beliefs that the old beliefs were abandoned. Maybe a ruler somewhere converted to goddess worship and started putting the statues everywhere. And because the goddess DOES exist, magic miracles happen to those who donated. Then someone who saw it went and put up goddess statues in their own place even though they don't exactly care about the goddess. They just want the miracles to happen. I mean, if so-and-so worked in that other place, maybe it will work here too!

 

Re Demon Realm: Remember that in Av2 the Oracle says that Aveyond is the LINK between human realm and demon realm. If Aveyond disappears, IT WOULD BE VERY BAD. By logic, it should be no problem to sever contact with demon realm. No more evil demons wandering around, no more bad guys like Ahriman. But the Oracle indicated that it would be bad if the link was gone, so the demon realm must be important somehow!

 

My interpretation of this is a yin-yang system. Demon Realm and Human Realm are two ends on a scale, with Aveyond as the bridge between the two. They both have to be in balance or else everything will be destroyed. If the Demon Realm is ruined, the human realm will be affected. If the human realm is ruined, the Demon Realm will be affected. The demons also worship the goddess, albeit in their own twisted way, because she is their creator too. Or, even if they don't worship her, they're at least obedient to her.

 

I personally see the demons of Aveyond as more like "youkai" of Japan than the Abrahamic idea of "demon". They're supernatural beings who by nature have a "dark" element (just like witches and warlocks), but they're not necessarily evil. There ARE evil demons, but demons aren't inherently evil. They can choose to be evil or not, just like humans.

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Re: Acropolis, it's obviously a Greek-inspired town, but I don't think it was named after a specific place in Greece. The name means high city which I always thought was meant to be taken in direct contrast to "Underfall".

I forgot about Hercules. Even though we see direct evidence that the Greco-Roman pantheon influenced some aspects of that game I can't really wrap my head around it. Assuming Earth doesn't exist in this universe, why should Earthly gods exist there?

 

It makes sense from an Earthly perspective that faiths and worship changes, especially when you think the games often take place generations (up to hundreds of years) apart. However, what confuses me is that they aren't faiths, they're real! How can a real live god just change like that? I get the whole concept of losing power when people don't believe in you, but since Haurvatat and the Goddess were in the habit of appearing in the flesh to human witnesses, how can people just stop believing in them? I get that some people just refuse to believe sometimes, but it seems that if the gods appear regularly enough, everyone should at least know someone who's seen the (G)oddess in question, thereby proving her existence?

 

Self-fulfilling paradoxes make my head hurt. :/

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Uh, quasi? Not to belittle you or anything, but I think your thought process is a bit tangled up.

 

, but since Haurvatat and the Goddess were in the habit of appearing in the flesh to human witnesses, how can people just stop believing in them?

Uh, when did people stop worshipping the goddess? If you mean AV1, didn't we already discuss the why up there?

 

About Haurvatat, it may be that she doesn't appear to too many people. Remember that she only showed up TWICE in AV1 and only after you do a "good deed". Not enough witness = lack of credibility. Then maybe afterwards she gave up on humans and just sulked in her godly realm and refused to appear in front of humans ever again.

 

Also, not many people knows the Oracle is the goddess. The goddess is real all right, but very few had the chance to see that she is real. She mostly prefers to appear as the Oracle, and the Oracle just looks like a very wise magical woman. Those who never saw it would never believe it's real even though they really ARE real. Especially if there are "alternative beliefs" to believe in. Look at Earth. We have bajillions of beliefs and each believer claims that theirs is true. Even if one religion turns up to be the one true religion and everything else is wrong, some stubborn people would simply not accept it, period.

 

it's obviously a Greek-inspired town, but I don't think it was named after a specific place in Greece.

 

Yes, and? Did anyone say it was named after a place in Greece? :o It may simply the Greek word for "high place" just like how "tamago" is just Japanese word for egg, but hey, it's probably just an easy reference because the Acropolis of Athens is famous and all.

 

Some names are directly lifted from the names of gods in our world, but doesn't mean that it's them. They could be gods in the Aveyond-universe who happen to be named those (read: easy reference; people feel good when they recognize familiar things). Or, you know, they're just priests, like I said before. Priests and priestesses CAN too bless.

 

See Ahriman. Ahriman is the ULTIMATE God of Evil in Zoroastrianism. You know, just like Satan/Lucifer in Christianity is? And yet in Aveyond he's just a very powerful demon overlord, not the king and god of all demons.

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quasi-candid wrote:

Re: Acropolis, it's obviously a Greek-inspired town, but I don't think it was named after a specific place in Greece. The name means high city which I always thought was meant to be taken in direct contrast to "Underfall".

I forgot about Hercules. Even though we see direct evidence that the Greco-Roman pantheon influenced some aspects of that game I can't really wrap my head around it. Assuming Earth doesn't exist in this universe, why should Earthly gods exist there?

 

The link between Acropolis and Underfall is clever, even though I've no idea in what manner this info is supposed help us learn anything useful about those two cities.

As for the Greece-inspired names and alleged deities found in Aia, I don't really see the point in asking why they should exist in the Aveyond-verse: it's like reading a heroic fantasy book with different species -including humans- and asking : "Assuming Earth doesn't exist in this universe, why should Earthly creatures like human beings exist there ?"

To me, the moment you start talking about fantasy, you should be able to assume anything is possible.

 

quasi-candid wrote:

It makes sense from an Earthly perspective that faiths and worship changes, especially when you think the games often take place generations (up to hundreds of years) apart. However, what confuses me is that they aren't faiths, they're real! How can a real live god just change like that? I get the whole concept of losing power when people don't believe in you, but since Haurvatat and the Goddess were in the habit of appearing in the flesh to human witnesses, how can people just stop believing in them? I get that some people just refuse to believe sometimes, but it seems that if the gods appear regularly enough, everyone should at least know someone who's seen the (G)oddess in question, thereby proving her existence?

 

I'm with d_a on this one. First of all, the only God that has actually appeared so far is Haurvatat; plus she appeared only twice, and in front of a hero party that was on a mission to save the world. From that basis we can't really say or even assume that she does that very often (I, in any case, would rather be tempted to say that she appeared because of exceptional circumstances -i.e. the fate of Aia resting on the shoulders of a teenaged swordsinger and her companions- ). Before Aveyond II, we've had no signs of miracles happening thanks to the Goddess, and before Av III, nobody seemed to know there ever was a link between the Goddess and the Oracle. And as far as I'm concerned, we do not know either if anyone in Aia has ever seen the Goddess in her true form.

Now, if you put a bit of everyone's theories together, you'll find that:

-the cult of the Goddess may or may not have stopped in Thais after Ahriman destroyed the Mainland (we don't know about that, since the absence of statues or churches doesn't necessarily mean the cult was totally abandoned).

-there are multiple explanations as to why the old gods -even if they were real- were ditched in favor of the Goddess (If you didn't get them, then I suggest you read the last posts again).

 

@d_a: I like your avatar theory and I think it actually fits the 'almighty' status of the Goddess better than mine (which is based on the assumption that her power mostly depends on her own creatures... which is kind of lame for an supposedly almighty deity, when you think of it xD ).

Your Demon Realm theory, I found it even more interesting, since it more or less takes the opposite view most people's (including myself) idea of a demon. TBH I never really thought of them as neutral with a "dark element" rather than "inherently evil". I do remember about Aveyond being the link between the Realm of men and the Demon Realm that shall never be severed. But with my very "Abrahamic' vision of demons as you said it, it didn't explain why they of all creature would worship any god -even if said god happened to be their creator.

But yeah, either way I think that ying-yang story makes sense and is quite original !

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It's not original because "neutral dark creatures" are plenty, but most people would not choose to call them demons. "Demon" has an evil connotation attached to it.

 

I'm Christian so I generally see "demon" as evil too, but English kind of shoves a whole lot of mystical beings under the "demon" umbrella so... I have seen a number of manga and anime translate youkai as demon, even though youkai are not really the "demon" as the Western world knows it. I think they're more akin to elves and dwarves and mermaids: supernatural/fantasy beings who may or may not be evil depending on which creature you encounter.

 

I kinda went with that train of thought to make my daeva nonsense, really. Without it I'll just dismiss them as evil because I frankly don't care. Bear with my nonsense rant:

 

Daevas and druids are both guardians of their respective realms. The druids take care of the physical, the nymphs takes care of the human souls. Demons have no souls (their life force is also their core of magic), and so they only need one set of guardians, the daevas (keeper of the elements). All guardians are under the command of the goddess. To prevent utter annihilation by the guardians fighting each other to death, daevas cannot kill druids and vice versa (hence why Agas failed to kill Talia and the daevas only took the druids' souls instead of killing them). They can kill each other (Talia killed the former Sun Guardian), but really, logically they have no reason to want to do that.

 

That's it for now. It's all mostly my own ideas and while they're tailored to fit canon, they're still NOT canon.

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Hello! I am back!

 

So it occurred to me that maybe the reason Haurvatat manifests as a physical being is because she was (if I remember correctly) once mortal, and is therefore more in touch with the mortal world...

 

Which leads me to the thought that perhaps the same thing happened to the Oracle, where she was once mortal, then became a goddess.

 

:o!

 

Maybe the Oracle is Avril?

 

*Puts on reasoning cap* Let's see, Avril could see the future, so I think that makes her AN oracle at least, and the Oracle and Avril are both relatively cranky old ladies... and when the Empress of the Eastern Isle was like, "Wait, Talia, since when were you the Dreamer?" She said, "The Oracle called me to the position years ago" it would totally make sense that she'd do what Avril asked, seeing as she sent Talia on her first adventure anyway, as opposed to some random old lady whom we as the players had never met before.

 

I hope that made as much sense up there^ as it did in my head. O.o

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It doesn't make sense if the Goddess is the creator of the universe. She did say she's "Mother of All", implying that she was the source of everything --> creator.

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Hmm... Maybe after the initial collapse and revivification of the mainland, the idea of "the goddess" was just something the Oracle brought back so she could put donation boxes around [d]to fund her vacation[/d] to feed the poor and such? ( XD )

 

Or she could just consider herself the mother of all (loving everybody as her children), and not have created everything.

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No, the nymphs ARE her children, or at least she's superior above them and those nymphs are either gods themselves or very near because they can bless "souls". To consider herself "mother of all" is arrogant if she isn't really the creator. That is, unless the world is formed by science and all living things came from evolution. Which doesn't explain where the gods come from or why they're even there.

 

So it occurred to me that maybe the reason Haurvatat manifests as a physical being is because she was (if I remember correctly) once mortal, and is therefore more in touch with the mortal world...

 

Are you sure? There was never any mention of mortals/humans becoming gods anywhere. I just checked AV1. Unless I missed something, the only thing we ever hear about Haurvatat is her introducing herself as Goddess of Healing when we do good deeds and the Dirkon villagers talking about her.

 

Personally not fond of humans-turning-to-gods, but eh. Only Amanda can say if it happens in Aveyond or not.

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Yeah, I'm pretty sure one of the villagers said something about her founding the village, and then becoming a god for her great deeds, but I don't remember exactly. Oh darrrrnnn, I guess I'm going to have to play Av1 again.

:P;)

 

Anyway, it wouldn't be arrogant if she considered herself mother of all because she loved everybody and wanted to take care of them. If she was like, "I am the mother of all because I said so, and therefore I am so wonderful that everybody must love me!" THAT would be arrogant. Or if she was trying to say she was the creator of all when she wasn't, while there was an actual greater force/god that created everything, that would be kind of like thumbing her nose at said force/god, but she doesn't actually say she's "the goddess" just that some would call her that.

 

And what more proof do we have that the nymphs are actually her children than we have that every living being is her child? The only thing we have to go by for both is her word.

 

EDIT: Found a video instead of playing all the way through again, and yep, Haurvatat was mortal at one point. (See at 6:41)

 

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But she said "Mother of All". It implies EVERYTHING is her children. Even if you use "mother" in the sense of "nurturer and caretaker", that still make no sense. A mother is a parent. A parent is superior. You cannot call a superior being of a higher level your child. You cannot call a being who is more mature/advanced than you your child. It's like if you say "I care for my boss and think of him/her as my child" when you are in fact younger than him/her. Then it becomes rather demeaning instead of nice and caring :S

 

Again, Nymphs with powers to give SOUL BLESSINGS are below her. Even if she's not their real "mother", she is still superior to them because she can punish them. You say we have nothing but her words to go by, but if she is lying, then she IS arrogant and demeaning to claim that such powerful beings were her kids.

 

It's a rather weird assumption that "god/goddess appears to mortals because they used to be mortals too". Greek and Roman gods and goddesses pop by Earth a lot and they didn't used to be humans. Hindu gods use avatars to walk among humans and they didn't used to be human either. God is God and He interacts with humans and make appearances.

 

Re your argument that the Oracle = Avril because "Talia would rather listen to Avril then some random lady nobody saw before": So what? You don't have to know someone to obey them if they're more powerful/experienced. Rhen listened to the Oracle and Talia even though she never saw them ever before. I've had guest pastors speak in church who I never saw or know ever, but I listen and follow what they say because their advice makes sense and I trust their judgement. And plus, a lot of important things happened that involved people who we never see ever. Talia married this random sun guardian guy who we never see ever and Mel marries Lars VIII who we also never see ever.

 

Re Haurvatat: Okay, I totally missed that house :S It doesn't prove anything though, cause the villager said "it is said so", not "it is fact that". So it was a legend, not a fact. If you need more proof for the Oracle's claim that the nymphs are her kids, then I too need more proof that Haurvatat used to be mortal other than some random villager's saying.

 

That was a lengthy ramble, but you did ask if your argument made sense to me. It doesn't make sense to me and all the above is my reason why.

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You definitely CAN call a superior being of a higher level your child, if your child *IS* a superior being of a higher level. It's grumpy-making to read blanket statements like that, stated as if they're absolute truth. A parent is *not* always "superior." Sometimes children end up being superior to their parents. That's how "superior" people end up existing in the first place. (SEE: "evolution.") It is absolutely possible that a mom's kids can do all sorts of things she can't do, but she still has the parental role to "punish them." And she's not being "arrogant or demeaning" to "claim" them as her kids. Not to mention that if they're adopted or foster kids, that adds yet another reason why they might be "superior" and yet still her kids.

 

The logic that "Greek and Roman gods and goddesses pop by Earth a lot, etc. etc." isn't relevant here, because that's based on our universe, and the Aveyond universe is not our universe. Unlike in our universe, no other gods or goddesses except Haurvatat "pop by." There's apparently something unusual about her, and the previous existence as a mortal MAY be the reason *in this separate universe*.

 

Re: "You don't have to know someone to obey them if they're more powerful/experienced." Ok, sure you don't necessarily "have" to. But that's not my point. My point is that it might make it MORE LIKELY.

 

For instance, Avril sent Talia on her adventure in the first place, when Talia went to receive her "naming", which is basically the biggest moment of a person from Elden's life. Talia went, because it was her naming, and Avril had been naming the children of Elden for who knows how long. And Avril was right. Talia ended up saving the world because of Avril's initial pointing in the right direction.

 

Now, would Talia listen to some Oracle lady whom she may or may not have met before? We can't really know. But if that lady was Avril, my point is, again, that it would be more likely that she would listen, and become Dreamer, as opposed to going home to Elden and staying there forever, which I believe was her end goal for the entirety of her quest.

 

Also, "It is fact that" would sound odd in a conversation like that. "It is said" is just a turn of phrase.

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Pfft... We need spoiler tags. This huge wall of text doesn't look pretty at all.

 

You definitely CAN call a superior being of a higher level your child, if your child *IS* a superior being of a higher level. It's grumpy-making to read blanket statements like that, stated as if they're absolute truth.

Oh, that's funny :laughing: I don't see any blankets. I know I didn't make any blankets either. Maybe Elmo's blanket got magically teleported here from Grouchland :lol:

 

In all seriousness, though, you're the one who's not understanding what I meant. I was sure I had been quite clear, but let me try re-explaining my point.

 

See, what you said requires the superior being to be your child FIRST. If he/she is your child, then however powerful magically/politically/physically they are doesn't count. That is NOT what I meant. What I meant by "you can't call a superior being your child" is akin to you walking up to the President of the United States of America and declare that he is your son. You seriously cannot do that! But if the President IS your son, then you're allowed to call him son however you want.

 

Sometimes children end up being superior to their parents. That's how "superior" people end up existing in the first place. (SEE: "evolution." ) It is absolutely possible that a mom's kids can do all sorts of things she can't do, but she still has the parental role to "punish them."

What does evolution have to do with anything? What are you even talking about? Obviously "superior" can mean many things, but if it involves evolution, this "superior" that you're talking about is definitely NOT what I had in mind.

 

When I said "parents are superior", I mean parents are by default superior to their kids because they have PARENTAL AUTHORITY. It does not have anything to do with physical/magic/political powers. Was that so hard to understand? Since you obviously agree with me about parents having authority to punish their kids, this argument is moot and pointless.

 

Adoption doesn't make sense because in this case, it would be like a fish or a dog adopting an adult human.

 

Remember that we're specifically discussing the nymphs here. Remember that the nymphs have power over human SOULS. Their blessings affect YOUR VERY BEING. This is not simply having super-strong magic powers. This is a serious god-mode thing. There's no way they could have been simply born with that role out of the blue because this is something that requires great responsibility.

 

The only way adoption makes sense is if you can gain nymph status just like the druids. If a nymph retires, they pick a new one. But the game implies that the nymphs have been nymphs since forever. Otherwise Iya wouldn't have immediately assume the Oracle was the goddess when she calls Ishtar and Heptitus her daughters. If the Oracle used to be human, I don't think Ishtar or Heptitus would want to be adopted by her.

 

The logic that "Greek and Roman gods and goddesses pop by Earth a lot, etc. etc." isn't relevant here, because that's based on our universe, and the Aveyond universe is not our universe. Unlike in our universe, no other gods or goddesses except Haurvatat "pop by." There's apparently something unusual about her, and the previous existence as a mortal MAY be the reason *in this separate universe*.

Whoaaa, hey there pot, I think I just hear you calling kettle black? Look at you. You're stating blind assumptions as though they're absolute fact and it makes me grumpy now :roll:

 

Seriously. If citing real-world myths is a bad example, okay, here's a better one: Rhen and Dameon supposedly had an epic romance, but we never see that happen on-screen. Or we don't see the characters go take bath or poop, but it's assumed that they do anyway. By the same logic, just because we don't see those gods pop by for a visit, doesn't mean that they don't do it while we're not looking. You are wrong to assume that only Haurvatat ever made an appearance in the Aveyond universe ever. There may be no proof that they did, but there's no proof that they don't either. We haven't seen the entirety of the Aia universe, for crying out loud. And even if we DO see them in AV4, things surely have changed since the AV1 era, so it's not really proof of anything.

 

Now, would Talia listen to some Oracle lady whom she may or may not have met before? We can't really know.

Again, that's the point: WE DON'T KNOW. Yea, it's true that if the Oracle is Avril, Talia would be more comfortable with the choice. A familiar face makes you feel better, after all. However, the Oracle being some random old lady doesn't make it any less likely that Talia would listen to her. We don't know, so we can't assume the Oracle is Avril simply because Talia listened to what she said.

 

But this has very much to do with my "the Oracle couldn't possibly be mortal" argument. I don't agree the Oracle/goddess used to be human once, so that's why I said it's not possible that Avril is the Oracle. That is, unless Avril is not human either and was the previous "avatar" used by the goddess before she decided to just go become the Oracle after Ahriman blasted Mainland.

 

Also, "It is fact that" would sound odd in a conversation like that. "It is said" is just a turn of phrase.

Sure, two can play the nitpicking game. Oh yeah, "it is fact that" is a weird phrase. But grammar and phrasing is beside the point here. I'm just saying that "it is said" indicates uncertainty. It's the same as "word has it xyz" or "I heard that xyz" or "someone told me XYZ". The NPC is quoting a dubious source that has no confirmation, so it cannot be considered "fact". It's not impossible, but you shouldn't be treating it as absolute fact just yet.

 

Again with the Mordred example. Some NPC said that the reason Mordred turned evil was because Lilly broke his heart or something. Is it true? Maybe, maybe not. We don't know. Same thing with Haurvatat. There's no "History of Dirkon" book that confirms it, or a book about gods that confirms it, or the Oracle confirming it, or heck, Haurvatat him/herself confirming it. None. No proof = not fact. We can speculate all we want, but when there is no solid proof, we can't claim that so-and-so is fact.

 

In AP, there was an NPC who told us that the village was built by a sun priest. Later, we find a history book that confirms it. That is and example of in-game solid proof. Dirkon don't return in AV3 so it may be too late to make an in-game proof, but I would take "word of god" as proof if Amanda ever confirms it.

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Sorry to double post, but I think that wall of text is big enough to give people a headache.

 

See, if we're even bothering trying to igure out how RELIGION works in Aveyond, it means that we're treating Aia as a world of its own.

 

The NPCs may have stock lines and a lot of things are gameplay conventions, but it IS still meant to be a "real world". Just because NPCs say stuff, doesn't mean that it is definitely true. They're people. People gossip. Wild rumours happen. There are myths and legends that may or may not be true.

 

While a lot of the legends DO turn out to be true, it still doesn't mean that every single legend spoken of IS true. Only the confirmed ones are true. Until it is proven true, it isn't.

 

Basing theories on "what-ifs" that were never confirmed is pretty much making things up from thin air. It's cool and interesting and stuff, but then it's not so much speculating anymore. It's, again, making things up and defeats the purpose of trying to speculate something logically.

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