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Yes, it is a huge wall of text. I understood what you meant. I just don't agree.

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Oh really? You misunderstood my point and gave me way-off-mark rebuttals. That looks more like you don't understand to me :S Did you even read the wall of text, perchance?

 

You can disagree, of course, because a lot of the stuff are unconfirmed and really, ANYTHING goes. But eh, I find your arguments wander off towards unrelated topics, so I feel the need to address those too.

 

We were not discussing if it's possible for parents to have children with higher status. We're strictly discussing about the Oracle and the nymphs. Discussing other parent-child relationship is a missing the point entirely. If you don't like me using real-world gods and goddesses as examples, you can't use other parent-children relationships to refute my opinion.

 

You can't say that Haurvatat is the ONLY god to ever show up in front of humans as though it's absolute fact. Just because we don't see other gods showing up doesn't mean that they don't. Whether or not she was previously human is irrelevant. You CAN speculate that she is the only god to do that for so and so reason, but you cannot tell me it's absolute fact.

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I think you're being needlessly argumentative.

 

And who is this "we"? I started this thread because you were telling quasi-candid (rather snarkily, actually) what he/she could and couldn't talk about in the other thread. You "can't" tell me what we can and can't discuss IN MY OWN THREAD. The fact that we went off topic on some tangent about what constitutes motherhood was your doing.

 

And "way-off-mark rebuttals"? Oh please.

 

You've been unceasingly mean and nasty to me since the moment I joined this forum, and have made enough snarky attacks to fill a swimming pool, both at me, and at everyone else who tries to post. You say you're here to help with the forum's "dry spell" but all you're doing is being so hostile to people that they never want to post again, which just makes the "dry spell" worse. We can't even talk about Aveyond any more, 'cause you come stomping in with your "I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and I can see in the files and I've talked to the creator so I must know better then you" attitude and scare everybody else away. Why would anyone want to bother posting when it just gets lost in your gigantic raging thunderstorm of derision? This is supposed to be fun, not war.

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Regardless of what is or is not "fact" ie intended by the creators of Aveyond, a work of fiction is up for interpretation by anyone. Sometimes making up your own explanations makes it more enjoyable. This thread is not about stating The Absolute Facts. It's an open discussion.

 

(Okay I didn't make the thread so I can't really speak for the purpose of the thread but that is what I was hoping we were going for)

 

Avrail being the goddess is my new headcanon. That transformation would make one awesome story/game.

 

The Oracle said the nymphs were her daughters, and that she was the mother of all. This could be a symbolic or adoptive relationship that she refers to; she does look after the Aveyond universe which is a mother role. She does not also have to have necessarily created it.

 

I do recall someone in one of the towns in Aveyond 1 saying a god founded the village (not sure if it was Haurvatat or Ahurani?). I don't know if the god had to be mortal to do that. S/he could simply have been working alongside humans for a short period of time. As the goddess of healing, I can see how Haurvatat would have a more direct relationship with the mortal realm. This makes her a pretty cool character in my opinion. :)

 

Compare the Oracle, who lives on Aia but doesn't help at all. :P

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YES! That is exactly what this thread is for! :D Let us continue the open discussion!

 

Haurvatat sounds awesome the more you mention her. I am suddenly insanely curious about her! Who was she before she was a goddess? How did she become a goddess? Who worships her? Who doesn't, and why? What is her relationship to the other gods of the era? Were they also once mortal? If she could become a goddess, does that reinforce the theory that the Oracle could be the goddess? And can a god become mortal again?

 

WHEEEEEE, questions! :D

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I don't get one thing, if Haurvatat is a God, with power, why doesn't she just cure the village herself?

 

Though I guess that could apply to the Oracle too :)

 

Maybe it's because it's too much work....

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theone wrote:

I don't get one thing, if Haurvatat is a God, with power, why doesn't she just cure the village herself?

 

Though I guess that could apply to the Oracle too :)

 

Maybe it's because it's too much work....

 

Haha yes, only shows up to say "Thanks for doing my work for me, here have a level, good dog" :D

 

In real-life religions the gods depend on mortals to carry out their work and deliver their messages. It's been suggested that higher beings cannot or will not interfere with worldly conflicts because humanity must overcome these challenges by themselves. I think the situation with Haurvatat is something along those lines.

 

Though Haurvatat DOES sort of interfere with her reward system. Some things are just meant to be mysterious I guess?

 

RE: Haurvatat's former life, it is an interesting idea. I always thought the gods would have subscribed to the classic eternally existent story.

If she were human, somehow I can't really see her in the role of a traditional healer in the mortal realm, even though Haurvatat is the goddess of healing. From what little we've seen of her, she just doesn't seem very stationary.

 

I don't know why I have attached so much character to her since she only says about two lines but from the way she goes out of her way to reward those who help others, rather than waiting in the afterlife to reward them then, I feel like sitting around waiting for patients to come to her isn't her style. I could see her as a missionary, or something that involves going to the problem rather than waiting for it.

 

Unfortunately we can't infer much from her appearance because in Av1 she uses a default angel sprite.

 

By contrast the Oracle does not move from her temple except for that one time when the empress called her. Honestly I like Haurvatat a lot more than I like the Oracle :P

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The Oracle basically does a deus ex machina with the frozen guests and whisking Ishtar and Heptitus away at the end of Av2, which leads me to believe that she did have some investment in keeping the world from turning to ice. But she did practically nothing when Gyendal tried to put out the sun, which would have accomplished the same thing, so maybe her investment is more in keeping her daughters from being evil, then actually helping to save the world.

 

But where did Haurvatat go, if she had the kind of power to grant levels? Did she really just disappear and fade out of worship? Or... IS SHE ACTUALLY INCARNATED IN STELLA?!?!?! (dun dun duhhhhn!) And before that she was incarnated in Iya! And that's why the Oracle helped Iya, and resurrected Stella, because she was helping her fellow deity!

 

I can't tell if this is getting crazier or more plausible as I go on. :P

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Crazier. I think crazier. :D But I like the way you think.

 

The oracle only took her daughters away after YOU vanquish them and make things right. She sorta slides in and takes the glory for a victory that she didn't really help with. THANKS FOR NOTHING

 

(Speaking of the Snow Queen, what the heck happened to the poor Mountain King and why did no one address it? In AV1 the Snow Queen was a mystical ruler of the snowy Mists. WAIT. Maybe the Oracle brought her back there at the end. Hmmm.)

 

It makes sense that a god with power who was obviously real and not just a legend would not just give up and fade away. "I'm done healing everybody. They can just go suffer from now on."

 

Theory A: She's reincarnated as the strongest healers of all time. Instead of Iya, why not Nicolas? Although... his attitude left something to be desired... but it would make more sense for her to come back as a healer. Iya, though sweet and concerned, did not have healing powers, but it's still possible. If she was once mortal, why not become mortal again?

 

Theory B: She changed tactics. Perhaps she is the one in charge of the Karma system, rewarding people for good deeds without speaking to them, sort of like Earthly religions. The most likely scenario but also somewhat boring.

 

Theory C: Some tragic misadventure resulted in Haurvatat's fall from grace? OoooOOOOooo

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Oh, the Mountain King was discussed VERY BRIEFLY quote a long time ago, but then new topics come up and then most of the forum-goers glommed on the new topics and lost interest of the Mountain King.

 

AV3 brought in lots of stuff to discuss, after all. Vampirism, whether or not Gyendal's plan even makes sense, Mel's romance, etc etc etc.

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Iniga wrote:

I think you're being needlessly argumentative.

Sorry Iniga, I suppose you unfortunately caught me in an argument that got me BOTH very angry AND persistent. I can be persistent without being angry.

 

The reason why I was picking on you so badly was because I thought that, since we're theorizing, we have to use the facts. If our theory was refuted by a fact, then we'd have to make some changes on our theory.

 

You misunderstood a lot to the stuff I said, so I was mostly trying to make you understand. Which was, you know, what usually why my long posts are so long. I was trying to explain things.

 

And who is this "we"? I started this thread because you were telling quasi-candid (rather snarkily, actually) what he/she could and couldn't talk about in the other thread. You "can't" tell me what we can and can't discuss IN MY OWN THREAD. The fact that we went off topic on some tangent about what constitutes motherhood was your doing.

By "we" I mean "forum-goers who participated in the discussion back then".

 

I suppose I worded things badly. When I said "you can't say X", I meant "if I'm wrong for saying XYZ, then you're wrong too for saying ABC because they're operating under the same logic". It's NOT telling you "shut up, you can't talk" :S Unless I was saying "off topic! cut this out!!" to quasi-candid, that is.

 

And re: motherhood. That was... because we were discussing the nymphs. That wasn't a tangent. That was relevant to the Oracle's goddess status.

 

And "way-off-mark rebuttals"? Oh please.

You sound like you think I'm lying/accusing you unfairly/spouting nonsense. This is what got me mad, you know. You're kind of dismissive of what I said.

 

And they are off-mark. Your replies to me were rather unrelated to what I said. That is, unless we just misunderstand each other's point.

 

You've been unceasingly mean and nasty to me since the moment I joined this forum, and have made enough snarky attacks to fill a swimming pool, both at me, and at everyone else who tries to post. You say you're here to help with the forum's "dry spell" but all you're doing is being so hostile to people that they never want to post again, which just makes the "dry spell" worse.

Hey, I never said I was helping the dry spell. I posted because this was the only discussion going on at the time.

 

We can't even talk about Aveyond any more, 'cause you come stomping in with your "I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and I can see in the files and I've talked to the creator so I must know better then you" attitude and scare everybody else away. Why would anyone want to bother posting when it just gets lost in your gigantic raging thunderstorm of derision? This is supposed to be fun, not war.

Ah, well, I guess that would scare the new people. I don't pitch a fit THAT often, but each time is intense enough to make other people unhappy :o

 

My tone may be not very nice, which I would admit and I apologize for that. Feel free to remind me if I'm being too heated, but what I said are still true. Are you going to dismiss all the stuff I brought up as "snobbery" now?

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Regardless of what is or is not "fact" ie intended by the creators of Aveyond, a work of fiction is up for interpretation by anyone. Sometimes making up your own explanations makes it more enjoyable. This thread is not about stating The Absolute Facts. It's an open discussion.

I was under the impression we're trying to find out "what is true" using the facts we have from the game. Not wildly theorizing! If I'd known this was a wild mass guessing thread from the get-go, I wouldn't have argued so hard about sticking true to actual facts! :S

 

Okay, then. With that out of the way, I can stop being so serious about this. It's not like this is a real religion.

 

(Speaking of the Snow Queen, what the heck happened to the poor Mountain King and why did no one address it? In AV1 the Snow Queen was a mystical ruler of the snowy Mists. WAIT. Maybe the Oracle brought her back there at the end. Hmmm.)

 

Oh, I remember the Mountain King was discussed very briefly a long time ago, but then got forgotten. I don't remember it going anywhere at all. I think it went something like, "Hey, what happened to the Mountain King?" "I dunno. Oh well. Hey, you remember that other stuff?" And then subject was changed.

 

The Mountain King is obviously some kind of powerful magic being, as he could make earthquakes happen... Maybe he's not immortal and he died? Maybe the Snow Queen killed him because he's in the way of her plans?

 

The oracle only took her daughters away after YOU vanquish them and make things right. She sorta slides in and takes the glory for a victory that she didn't really help with. THANKS FOR NOTHING

This reminded me of that time when Rhen was asking "So where's Ahriman's lair?" and the Oracle basically said "Dunno, LOL" and Eithera was the one who said "I think it's that suspicious door in my basement".

 

Oh, and that time in AV3 where the Oracle is being all "I don't really know about the Orbs, LOL" and she had to go look it up in her library.

 

I think she just likes to mess with the people on purpose.

 

And on that note... I want to ask "what makes a god a god". Remember the Orb of Life? It brought Stella back to life and reversed undeath (vampirism). That Orb is made by Mordred, who is (as far as we can tell) human.

 

I mean, meddling with life and death are usually the territory of the gods. So... if humans can do THAT, what makes a god special? Immortality? Omniscience? What?

 

(see, I can make non-angry long posts too :P)

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Regardless of what is or is not "fact" ie intended by the creators of Aveyond, a work of fiction is up for interpretation by anyone. Sometimes making up your own explanations makes it more enjoyable. This thread is not about stating The Absolute Facts. It's an open discussion.

I was under the impression we're trying to find out "what is true". Not wildly theorizing!

 

If this was a wild mass guessing thread from the get-go, why didn't anyone say so? I wouldn't have argued so hard about sticking true to actual facts! :S

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daeva_agas wrote:

(see, I can make non-angry long posts too :P)

 

Good. :)

 

Hmm, what makes a god a god? Teleportation and shapeshifting were among Haurvatat's powers, but Ean could shapeshift, and Gyendal could teleport (and shapeshift, now that I think about it), though I have yet to see another entity who could grant levels.

 

Wait, what about level eggs >.>...

 

Ah, of course, it all makes sense now! The Goddess is actually a GIANT CHICKEN!!! :o:D

 

-------------------------------

 

*insert huge realization gasp*

 

I just realized that when Stella and Edward get engaged, she gives him a Feather of Eternity, and calls it the most precious item she owns. It always struck me as odd that Stella would randomly have a magic healing feather if she was a butterfly person, but if she were an incarnation of Haurvatat... Haurvatat had bird wings.

 

*insert another huge awestuck gasp*

 

Well, I think that's my Daily Value of crazy theory proving right there. 8)

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daeva_agas wrote:

Oh, I remember the Mountain King was discussed very briefly a long time ago, but then got forgotten. I don't remember it going anywhere at all. I think it went something like, "Hey, what happened to the Mountain King?" "I dunno. Oh well. Hey, you remember that other stuff?" And then subject was changed.

 

I remember this happening somewhere too. Poor Mountain King, no appreciation.

 

This reminded me of that time when Rhen was asking "So where's Ahriman's lair?" and the Oracle basically said "Dunno, LOL" and Eithera was the one who said "I think it's that suspicious door in my basement".

 

Oh, and that time in AV3 where the Oracle is being all "I don't really know about the Orbs, LOL" and she had to go look it up in her library.

 

Yeah... I wouldn't be comfortable if that person was in charge of my universe.

 

I mean, meddling with life and death are usually the territory of the gods. So... if humans can do THAT, what makes a god special? Immortality? Omniscience? What?

 

Not to mention the Oracle seems to have a hard time reversing these actions without help. Maybe some mortal should take over the Oracle's job.

 

I'm guessing the immortality, omniscience, and omnipresence as a general rule, but also it could be more of a title, like they are ultimately The Ones In Charge by some kind of divine law, and not necessarily by definition. Even though Gyendal and any number of lesser spirits and gods may or may not be more powerful than the Oracle, she is still the Oracle, without reason or option.

 

Iniga wrote:

Ah, of course, it all makes sense now! The Goddess is actually a GIANT CHICKEN!!! :o:D

 

I want you to think about what you've just said.

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You know... a lot of these stuff don't actually have a deeper meaning beyond "Oops, we forgot that so-and-so happened in the previous game", so that technically throws a loop in speculation, buuut if we want to forcefully fill up the holes with random explanations....

 

though I have yet to see another entity who could grant levels.

 

You forgot the mysterious old lady that randomly showed up to give Stella levels when she had to do her test of purity or whatever up in the mountain in AV3. And the same random old lady gave Mel and Uma and Nox bonus levels in Demon Realm.

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daeva_agas wrote:

You know... a lot of these stuff don't actually have a deeper meaning beyond "Oops, we forgot that so-and-so happened in the previous game", so that technically throws a loop in speculation, buuut if we want to forcefully fill up the holes with random explanations....

 

though I have yet to see another entity who could grant levels.

 

You forgot the mysterious old lady that randomly showed up to give Stella levels when she had to do her test of purity or whatever up in the mountain in AV3. And the same random old lady gave Mel and Uma and Nox bonus levels in Demon Realm.

 

I've wondered if all this is just the Oracle's doing. She doesn't interfere directly.

 

Could be way off though

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In my personal headcanon, the Oracle is just some kind of human "meatsuit" for the goddess so that when she talks to humans they don't explode.

 

But her "human meatsuit" forces her to downgrade her ability, like maybe it blocks her visions of the future or it takes away most of her power.

 

As I said many times, I like to think the goddess works the way the Judaism/Islam/Christianity God works. The way the Oracle calls on people to solve the problems of the world is just like the stories from the Old Testament. Best example: Moses. If you don't know who he is, Google him. He's pretty well-known even outside religious circles.

 

God calls Moses to free the Hebrews from Egypt and had Joshua lead them to battle to reclaim Canaan. God could've done it Himself if He so wants to. You know. Magically teleport all the Hebrews to Canaan and drive out the people who live there, but He didn't. He had Moses do all the haggling with the Pharaoh and made the people walk a loooooooong distance and fight bitter wars. Why? I don't really know, but that's what happened.

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She's not a very good goddess, then, if wearing such "meatsuit" forces her to diminish her divine qualities. Even Greek gods don't become less of a deity when they descend to Earth in human form.

 

God calls Moses to free the Hebrews from Egypt and had Joshua lead them to battle to reclaim Canaan. God could've done it Himself if He so wants to. You know. Magically teleport all the Hebrews to Canaan and drive out the people who live there, but He didn't. He had Moses do all the haggling with the Pharaoh and made the people walk a loooooooong distance and fight bitter wars. Why? I don't really know, but that's what happened.

 

That's completely different though. In the Bible, God was really present among the Israelites when they got out of Egypt, lead them, provided for them and fought the battles for them. The Oracle only shows up once in a while and give vague advices that isn't really helping.

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True that, but I was saying that in reply to the "why don't the gods/goddesses solve the problem themselves?" remark.

 

It really doesn't make sense because the nymphs thing implied that the Oracle is THE most high goddess of awesome, but... she goes all "yikes, Aveyond dissolved and I can't do jack about it!" and "What's Mordred orbs all about? I dunno!".

 

Maybe the Oracle IS the goddess who created Aia, but she is not the ultimate all-powerful deity. There's still a power above her that controls the other things that she couldn't.

 

Or maybe the Oracle meatsuit is like a prophet that the goddess gives revelation to every once in a while. When Ishtar and Heptitus happened, the goddess borrowed the Oracle's body temporarily, but she ISN'T really the goddess.

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theAdept_Rogue wrote:

She's not a very good goddess, then, if wearing such "meatsuit" forces her to diminish her divine qualities.

The oracle isn't a very good goddess, anyway. Sometimes she doesn't even know what's going on in her own world that SHE supposedly created. And when she does, then she has someone else fix everything for her. Maybe I would understand if she was going for the whole divine-beings-don't-interfere thing, but she does talk to actual people once in a while. Like many people in this thread have said, I don't think the goddess is all-powerful and omniscient. The way I see it is, the goddess created Aia, and sometimes she interferes as the Oracle to help the people of Aia deal with evil. She has some powers, like time travel and teleporting and speaking telepathically into people's heads, but that's it. She couldn't just snap her fingers and make all of the evil in the world disappear, because she doesn't have the ability to do that, at least not while she's the Oracle. (Also, if that were possible there wouldn't be a game...) The minor gods and goddesses, i.e. Haurvatat, are just immortals with really awesomesause powers. The only reason that they are considered gods is that people worship them.

 

But yeah, the Oracle/goddess is basically the Dumbledore of Aveyond. There to give vague tidbits of advice when it's convenient, but the rest of the time, she just sits there like "I know a really helpful bit of information, but am I gonna tell you? LOL, nope! I'm just going to sit here and watch you die and endlessly revive yourself with cassia leaves, and right when the world is about to end, THEN I'll tell you!!"

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I don't think the Oracle is fully the goddess in flesh. She's either an "avatar", a sockpuppet or meatsuit for the goddess, or a prophet/priestess who the real goddess speaks through every once in a while.

 

When she doesn't have the goddess's revelation, she doesn't know anything. Then every once in a while, the goddess would possess her to do things when it requires heavy-duty intervention, like timetravel or nymphs going whacko.

 

There's a reason why in religions the ultimate God doesn't go tromping around solving problems for the people. He makes them do it themselves, BUT with His help. Something about "God doesn't help those who don't help themselves".

 

Maybe the goddess is also like that. If she goes and fixes everything for the people, they won't even bother to try and would just treat the goddess like a magic-genie to grant wishes.

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On the Haurvatat issue, I think she wasn't worshipped in Sedona at all, was she? If I remember correctly, she was worshipped in the village south of there.

 

The village didn't exactly have a huge amount of contact with Sedona, since they couldn't even get elixirs from there. And in the 3rd game, we didn't visit that village at all.

 

That might explain Haurvatat's absence

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theone wrote:

On the Haurvatat issue, I think she wasn't worshipped in Sedona at all, was she? If I remember correctly, she was worshipped in the village south of there.

 

In the same game Haurvatat appeared also outside of New Witchwood, if you did the ruby slippers quest. I don't think there was any worshiping going on there either.

 

I believe there may have been a third incident but I can't remember.

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Hmm... seeing how Green Rock Temple was desolate and overrun with weeds even when Clearwater is still alive and running, looks like the people simply shifted religions.

 

Which makes me wonder AGAIN what was up with the druids. They WERE important enough to warrant being targeted by Ahriman, so... whaddup? The Oracle said "Look, let me be in charge alone now so you won't be in danger", maybe? I mean, they're not just random priests serving some god. They have some kind of power/importance to be keepers of the Sword of Shadows!

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