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Slaying Dragons: Nobility to Knights?

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@pink: ?? I don't mean to hurt feelings. If that's what happen, I apologize for that part.

 

But I do and will pick at arguments I feel lack substance and I expect people to do the same with my arguments since that's the only way for your position to become more sound/defendable.

 

In debates I always try not to attack people, but the opinion itself.

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I agree with some of pink's logic on the innocent dragon situation, but not all. Giving some suggestions that can change just one or two things can make it believable.

 

1) What if the dragon was afraid to come into contact with the humans but had to fly over a large village area to reach the only source of water within hundreds of miles? The humans could have tapped into that only source of water for their needs if they have used up any other sources available.

a) the dragon could go digging for other sources of water underground, but the humans would think the dragon is destroying the area.

B) the dragon may not have flown over the village, but the villagers may have seen it in the distance and feared the dragon may come their way, causing panic.

 

2) Dragons have a language of their own. Whether they are just a year or 10000 years own, it would take a lot longer for them to learn to speak in human tongue. A fire breathing dragon can also have the same effects of spewing fire from their mouth just as we humans have stuff come from our mouths or noses when we cough or sneeze. So why can't they try to explain what they have done by accident?

a) If you were driving in a car through a town you have never been to before and accidentally ran over someone's foot, wouldn't you at least try to stop and see what you have done? At least try to apologize for doing it?

B) What you were driving in a car in a city you don't speak the language of? Would you ignore stopping to at least apologize just because you don't speak their language?

c) Babies are born and they don't speak our language yet. If a baby were to try to talk and spits up formula onto you, would you think the baby was attacking you and you have a right to attack it?

 

3) Accidentally spinning around and hitting the knight with your tail...nudging the knight with your head....things like that shouldn't be done by a dragon so large if it knows it can hurt someone so small.

 

4) Accidentally landing on a hut and killing it's inhabitants? If the place is definally larger than 1/4 the size of the dragon does seem far-etched. Yet if the hut or dwelling is too big to be avoided or too small to be seen, that can be understood.

a) Can you tell me there has never been a time where you have walked outside on a warm or sunny day with much dust or sand around and accidentally stepped on a small anthill?

 

5) The knight should have tried to talk with the dragon. If the dragon should have the ability to try to reason with a knight, the knight should also have the ability to try to reason with the dragon first.

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@kenny:

 

1. Than the dragon should have moved to a better area seeing as it is a powerful creature with flying abilities. :P

Seriously though, from analyzing large animals and their movements, there's probably ways a dragon can adapt to their situation. For example, we have mountain lions on this campus and yet rarely would we ever see one. Also, if the dragon flies high enough, the average human probably won't even look up assuming its a bird. Why the heck was a dragon flying so low?

 

2. In pink's scenario, the dragon specifically forgets it can't speak the other language and forgets to control its abilities. This isn't just a normal cough or a sneeze but just a sigh. In her scenario, the dragon sighed before just fine. The second? it suddenly spits out fire. This is like breathing and all of a sudden you spit while breathing normally. That doesn't happen unless you were sick which apparently the dragon is not.

 

a: First, if you were merely driving and not paying attention and run over someone's foot. You should have your license revoked. Now that that's outta the way, yes one should not 'hit and run' as we call it here.

 

b. Than you really shouldn't be driving as you obviously have no idea what you are doing. Do some research and for the love of the goddess, get a translator friend and take your driving test again. Or at least learn the language before jumping into that type of situation.

 

c. This argument is moot. The baby has no conscious control over whatever it does. It hasn't gain that control. Pink's dragon on the other hand is suppose to have complete control of its abilities which it doesn't. If it doesn't, than yes: it should be controlled in whatever way. We do this all the time by medicating people with disorders so they will function properly. If these people do not take their medications, they could/have/will hurt people and/or themselves. Sides, one must point out that Pink's dragon incinerated homes, squashed them, and was a public menace. It caused harm. Good intentions mean nil if the end result is people gets hurt.

 

3. true true.

 

4. "You try and land nearby so you can reason with them, but you end up crushing a few more huts in the process. "

Not one house. Several huts. Also, note the 'try and land'. The dragon is using its eyes and the only alternative is to crush some houses? Something sounds fishy here.

 

a. That is a moot point due to the consciousness part. In your scenario, the human is being absentminded and not really conscious of its actions. However this dragon concludes that the only way to land is to land on some huts. One is actively deciding that crushing is fine, the other is not with the program.

 

5. No, the knight is reacting as he's suppose to, which is to defend. Let's look at it from the poor villagers point of view: There's this big dragon that incinerates one home, smashes to bits several other homes possibly killed people, and you expect them to respond amiably? Look at how a police force reacts: If there was a shooting and they had the shooter in sight, they will most likely shoot that person to make sure that person doesn't harm anyone else, regardless of shooter's intentions.

 

As I said before, good intentions mean nothing if the end results in harm.

 

If this was a more realistic scenario, the dragon would:

1. Stay away from humans

2. Fly HIGH

3. Learn to control its abilities

4. Look BEFORE you land

5. DON'T CONCLUDE landing on houses is the only alternative

6. For everyone's sakes (dragon and human) USE THE BRAIN. Don't let it rot in lala land.

:P

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oh, fine, good point. Man, your smart. you got me. I don't like it when I realize I'm wrong. I pretend I don't exist and I get really embarrassed. can we forget I even gave that example? I was soooo naive at the time.

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Nice rebuttal, KTC. I'll accept the reasoning of all but the very end of the response to my number 5 quote.

 

"Look at how a police force reacts: If there was a shooting and they had the shooter in sight, they will most likely shoot that person to make sure that person doesn't harm anyone else, regardless of shooter's intentions.

 

"

 

In our world, the police should 'Serve and Protect' first and foremost. As seen on real crime shows I see on the ID cable network, the thing the police SHOULD do and most of the time do, they get to where the perp is located who did the shooting and they pull their weapons, but they try to get the perp to put down his/her/their weapon(s) by shouting to them to give up.

 

They want to keep the perp from being forced to kill more people before trying to gun down the perp. It makes it hard to get this criminal to answer for their crimes if they are shooting the criminal to death.

 

The ones who were family of the shooting victims may be relieved the criminal is dead, but it doesn't ease their mind that this is the only payback he gets. They may want the perp to rot in jail or be painfully executed in public. The criminal dies without remorse since they were shot dead immediately.

 

A dragon, intelligent or not, could be treated the same way if a knight has a reason to attack but was not there to prevent the carnage.

 

I still believe if the dragon was attempting to be captured by the knight, it could be wounded to keep it from escape flight or attacking anyone or anything else without killing it. Then the townspeople could meet and decide it's fate. Killing the dragon because all of the stuff that happened makes the knight brave, but not worthy of knighthood since it was not necessary to kill the dragon to "Prove you deserve such an honor"

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@kenny:

 

Hmm must be watching different police shows cuz the ones I see, like in a terrorist one for example or in an active shoot out which is the dragon, the police would shoot first ask questions later. Oh well, perhaps I should catch up on my police shows since I have only watched a few and they were old ones.

 

I'm of the mind that if anything attacks you, you are obligated/encouraged to survive by any means necessary.

 

Back to pinks scenario: To the knight's point of view: the dragon is a dangerous beast attacking the village and attacking the knight himself. The dragon roars several times which would be the equivalent of angry/raging "ATTACK! KILL!". It also bumps and slashes the knight. The knight would be correct to survive by either disabling the beast or kill it. Since an opportunity presented itself to kill the beast, the knight would react first. As a fighter, he is trained to take openings when they present themselves, not ignore them for a less lethal method that might never come. This dragon is massive going by how it smashing several houses. In the knight's mind, this might be the only chance to successfully kill the beast without killing himself. The knight reacted realistically to a threat.

 

I think the notion of only injuring but not killing a dangerous beast is a modern invention because in the medieval times it was pretty much kill kill kill. So while it would be nice to simply injure/capture, it might not be realistic to expect it from a knight from that time period.

 

As for knighthood: I honestly think this is more political thing than anything in the medieval age. If you have power, you would want the power to remain within your level. Rarely could a peasant rise to knighthood. This means that the knights would already have a reputation to go with their shiny bits and pieces. Also, since the knight is already a knight he doesn't need knighthood. ;)

 

@pink: I was hoping you learn from this rather than forget it. Thinking/arguing logically takes practice and requires a good opponent. And we have some good ones on the board. :)

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@KTC you are definitley right about that, but I have a problem with it. I think I just get way too upset if I sound/act stupid. It makes me feel weird and I hide from it until it washes over. I need to fix that, but I am not sure how.

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@smirk:

 

ego boosting? In which scenario?

 

If the dragon's a menace (razing towns, destroying stuff, etc.), than it needs to be taken down.

 

If the dragon's harmless, than I agree it's ego boosting.

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@KTC: Both counts, if you think about it, but the 'harmless' scenario, mostly.

 

Even if knights (or whomever) killed a dragon for defense purposes, there will be some kind of increase in pride and self-confidence. Especially if it's a big bad thing and it was a one-on-one fight.

 

(Of course, realistically speaking with your generic, big scaly dragon, it will be one tough battle to go one-on-one. Try to bring your friends along! XD )

 

...of course, such increase in pride might lead to dragon hunting expeditions. You know, killing dragons for the glory it brings. (Speculation, of course, but plausible)

 

I don't know if this has been touched upon (yes, I'm lazy to read through the whole thread D: ), but I guess the 'nobility' thing - or even dragon-slaying - is dependent on the culture of the land, or even what kind/temperament the dragons have. Perhaps dragons are rather friendly and harmless. Maybe they're even gods (benevolent dragon or otherwise), so inflicting harm on them is going to bring you the opposite of honor XD

 

But I think I'm going off a tangent again XD

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@smirk:

 

Ego: Ah I see what you mean, though that's assuming you survive first XD

 

Expeditions: plausible, though finding one might prove difficult as those slimy beasts are surprisingly hard to find :3

 

Culture: I think it's been touched on briefly, and I think most posts in this thread is about the typical western dragon. I mean, a mere human would have no chance against a chinese dragon. Can you imagine a puny human winning against a dragon god that controls the oceans? Only another 'demigod' (like monkey king) or similarly powerful forces would be able to take down a dragon.

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@KTC: Well, glory can be posthumous XD

 

Expeditions: All higher the ego boost if one succeeds in finding and slaying one - and the 'if' here is painted in big red letters XD

 

Culture: Yep, Wester dragon alright...or the Western concept of a dragon. In a fantasy series, people could just create a creature called a dragon and invent a whole lot of other ideas about it which doesn't adhere to the most Western dragon concepts. But that is a digression.

I remember Dragon Ball...and the scenes where they fight the (eastern themed) evil dragons XD Power of a deity indeed. XDD

This dragon thread reminded me of the dragons in the book series A Song of Ice and Fire. I mention this because it has a slightly different take on dragons - and it is a setting clearly based on the medieval West (they have *knights*). Yes, they're basically large, winged lizards who breathe fire, but they can be controlled and utilized for battle. The previous ruling dynasty in the setting used dragons during their conquest, and attempted to breed them, but eventually their dragons died out D:

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