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Aeternus

How do you buy your milk?

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I've never seen milk in bags before, but considering the bagged egg (the liquid kind) we get where I work, I could see that happening.

 

Wabbit: I've read similar things about plastic... Unfortunately, I've never seen milk that doesn't come in plastic. even the cartons are plastic coated on the inside so it doesn't soak through.

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I love that this topic has made it onto Amaranthia! I'm from Ontario (apparently the milk bag thing is an eastern Canada thing and not out west) and I never even considered it to be something out of the norm until our papers reported the Youtube ad. Thinking about it I realized that most of the places I've been haven't had bags...of course the 'shelf milk' I got while living in France was a whole other thing altogether ;) lol. Anyhow, to answer the question, I'm obviously a bag girl!

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@Astral

I guess Ontario doesn't have the Québecer knowledge about the secret art of milk-pouring. XD

Pssh! Ontarians are perfectly capable of pouring milk from bags. In fact, we have our own (superior) secret art but we just hide that fact from you guys out east ;)

 

@Wolfie

Bagged.....eggs?!

 

@Jayshe

Haha, we must read the same newspaper, then xD

Honestly, when I first read it, I thought it was weird that people thought this was weird! LOL

 

@Wabbit

We get milk in bottles and/or plastic jugs here. I've seen the milk bags before, but my dad claims they're unhealthy. I think the reason was something along the lines of 'the fat found in the milk dissolves something from the nylon bag, leading to serious ailments after a long while'.

I've heard people make this claim before. Still, though, plastic jugs are the same, aren't they? And as Wolfie mentioned, there's a coating along cartons to ensure the milk doesn't soak through. It's hard to get away from plastic =/

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I've never heard of milk being bagged before. When I visited Canada, I never saw it... Of course, the last time I went was about five or six years ago, so my memory might be off.

 

We usually buy our milk in the plastic jugs.

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@wolfie: ditto aeternus, what are bagged eggs? O.o?

 

never heard anything about milk+plastic=bad and my mum's a nurse. We heard microwaveable plastic+microwave= bad but not plastic+milk=bad.

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Its not only a eastern canada thing. I live in BC and we had milk in bags as well.not sure if any really carry anymore.

Jayshe wrote:

I love that this topic has made it onto Amaranthia! I'm from Ontario (apparently the milk bag thing is an eastern Canada thing and not out west) and I never even considered it to be something out of the norm until our papers reported the Youtube ad. Thinking about it I realized that most of the places I've been haven't had bags...of course the 'shelf milk' I got while living in France was a whole other thing altogether ;) lol. Anyhow, to answer the question, I'm obviously a bag girl!

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Haha, I've never heard of milk coming in a bag (though technically, they originate from the cow in a sort of "bag" right o.O?)

 

I haven't had actual cow milk by the glass in a while. I maybe have a glass or two if there is some special occasion and there's chocolate cake around :D other than that, I try to avoid milk. It's actually quite unhealthy for you. Cow milk is filled with antibiotics and hormones, and really doesn't serve much of a purpose. Tasty, of course, but I consider it a dessert item XD

 

It must sound weird, I apologize :P

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hormones= unhealthy is a myth (they need to be injected into you to have any effect at all. Drinking it will not affect you. probably get melted away by your stomach acids). The antibodies thing was never proven and seems more like fear inducers.

 

Milk is excellent easily absorbed source of calcium, protein, and as for the fat: you can always get skim though it taste like water. Milk is obviously also a major ingredient in many dishes. So obviously, it has purpose.

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KTC wrote:

@wolfie: ditto aeternus, what are bagged eggs? O.o?

 

 

 

I assume it would be a big bag of uncooked scrambled egg. For restaurants/hotels/places that need to make tons of food/etc., a big bag of liquid egg would be much more efficient/cost effective than having a dude cracking eggs all day and all night. :)

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Actually, KTC, while it is true that a lot of hormones, which are essentially proteins, get denatured by the stomach's acids, this is not entirely true for hormones suspended in milk. There are many who use milk as a temporary relief for stomach acidity. This is because milk acts as a buffer, neutralizing to a significant extent, the acid levels of the stomach. Although this doesn't guarantee absorption of hormones, it certainly opens the door for it. Wide.

 

Furthermore, it should be no surprise that antibodies are absorbed from oral ingestion. Remember that a function of milk is to provide humoral immunity to newborns. The milk is designed to help in antibody absorption.

 

The problem is that there are few ventures into establishing the effect of commercial milk on humans. It's important to note that studies against milk in the US are not well funded simply because the milk industry is quite large. We need to be wary about bias when dealing with American studies. The very fact that milk is such a big industry in and of itself is reason to perform more studies. People are drinking this stuff every day.

 

A 2009 Japanese study showed that male mice developed significant adverse reproductive effects when given cow's milk daily. Though weak, it raises questions.

 

Another 2009 study conducted in Japan showed that estrogens and quite possibly other hormones, were present in significant amounts in the human bloodstream by ingestion.

 

A 2008 Finnish study correlated cow's milk with insulin resistance, raising questions about the rise of diabetes. Countries like the US are predisposed to diabetes due to the high calorie diets most Americans have. Additional factors like milk consumption may account for the spike in the diabetes epidemic.

 

Most studies detailing the harmful effects of milk come from foreign countries, showing the reluctance and inherent bias of milk-drinking countries to hurt their industries.

 

Regardless of harm, though, cow's milk has little to no positive effects for humans. It is nothing but tradition that keeps Western Europe and America drinking milk. Milk drinkers are actually the minority by far in comparison to the global population. In that case, I do try to tell people to reduce their consumption of cow milk and increase the consumption of soy milk, which helps lower cholesterol and protect against heart disease.

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the japanese one: male mice doesn't equate to humans.

 

estrogen: but does it do anything and what type of estrogen are we talking about. (I'm pretty skeptical of the effects anyway since one of my male teachers is an absolute milk lover yet I don't see him developing breasts. Going from some personal problems, the supposed milk estrogen floating in your system isn't affecting you if at all either. So somethings wrong here.)

 

finish: correlation doesn't mean it makes it happen. US is a poor example because most of us like to eat sweet stuff and other sugar stuff increasing diabetes. I can use my dad as an example who's lactose intolerant (he doesn't drink milk) yet is almost diabetic.

 

The soy milk you enjoy has its own supposed dangers as well so you're merely trading one 'evil' for another 'evil'.

 

positive effects: you're neglecting the easy source of calcium, protein, and the part where its a cooking ingredient. *shrugs*

 

point being: unless there's clear causation that milk is bad for you (causation, not correlation) I'll be drinking my 2% milk and use it for milk tea. (or unless my mum tells us something different cuz my mum's a health freak and she bugs us on anything remotely health related. She never mentioned anything about milk.)

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The debate:

 

KTC, "hormones need to be injected" -- source?

but that's not necessarily what we're talking about. We're talking about synthetic hormones (or substances that mimic the effects of hormones). There is enough variety of those that some can be ingested...

 

Anyway, what I was talking about was based on a study that found BPA and Phthalates in peoples' urine, not some sort of theoretical approach. (which don't work too well b/c not enough is known about what goes on in human bodies.)

Chances are you're among the 93 percent of Americans with detectable levels of bisphenol A (BPA) in their bodies, and you're also among the 75-plus percent of Americans with detectable levels of phthalates in their urine. Both of these synthetic chemicals, found in plastics, mimic estrogen. And like some pesticides, these chemicals can predispose your body from an early age to gain fat.

http://mobile.menshealth.com/site?sid=menshealth&pid=Article.detail&section=Nutrition&channel=Food%20For%20Fitness&sectionDisplay=Nutrition&articleId=676e5983f7a75210VgnVCM10000030281eac____&full=true

 

 

...and now, time to get disorganized. =P

 

 

Japanese: even if mice =/= humans, they are similar enough that results in mice are worth investigating further in humans at least... it may not be solid proof, but it is a strong suggestion.

 

finnish study... well, another thing that's correlated with the diabetes spike is better marketing strategies. specifically, candy marketing strategies. . . (for example, placing them where people are more likely to walk by, like at registers.)

 

 

also, ktc your teacher & dad proves nothing. There's not even a large enough sample to decide if a correlation is present, much less any causation. 'sides, just b/c there's not enough to cause breasts to start producing milk doesn't mean there's not enough to cause other problems.

 

 

===

more specific replies:

 

Aeternus: The only way I know to get away from plastic is to buy milk in glass bottles like they had in the olden days. And to go to a butcher for your meat, make your own yogurt, etc.

 

Aeternus & KTC: What Argoyle said. It's cheaper to ship them in plastic because egg shells can crack during transport so a plastic bag doesn't need as much padding. .: There's more room for actual egg in the truck.

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...they are similar enough that results in mice are worth...

 

No. Mice are humans are not similar.Nor are they close enough for a study like that Japanese did to matter.

 

As for the hormones, like KTC said, just because you ingest it doesn't mean the body absorbs it. Just because traces of it were found in the urine, doesn't mean the body used it. The body excretes a lot of chemicals.

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hormones gotta be injected: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22349307/

 

as for the urine: that doesn't really prove anything as mopiece said. It just means the hormone wasn't absorbed. So even if the hormone is present, that doesn't mean its actually doing anything.

 

japanese: it doesn't even strongly suggest. humans and mice have different hormone systems to begin with so what applies to mice doesn't apply to humans necessarily.

 

finnish: not seeing your point here.

 

next: We don't know the size of the study to begin so it could have been fairly small making my cases relevant. *shrugs*

Actually, now I think about it we don't even know what were the factors of the individuals that were being tested: income, race, sex, medical history, lifestyle (as in how they grew up and such) etc.

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Mopiece: Why do we study on mice at all then? (Wolfie is thoroughly confused)

 

KTC:

Finnish: I'm agreeing w/ what you said about correlations. ie there could be another cause. (hey, I said that part was disorganized... that was a response to canta)

 

Hormones: That article amuses me b/c of the Men's Health label, which is the same magazine I got my info from. I guess the plastic isn't protein based.

 

 

Both of ya:

if I had any other replies other than 'I can accept that' or 'I agree' to anything else you had, I forgot them =P

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Mice are cheap. They also reproduce quickly, and have lots of babies. And they are mammals. Also, they can be pretty docile if handle from birth.

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@wolfie: we use them because they are a good model organism.

 

They are cheap to maintain, have large amounts of offspring, grow up rapidly, and have similar genome to us. According to wiki, mice are primarily use for gene manipulation/genetic diseases since their genome is similar to ours.

 

finnish: ahh okay.

 

hormones: lol.

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golf balls are also cheap but their application to rocket science research is limited. . .

 

share 99% of their genes with humans
(the wiki article)

Like I said. similar.

But I'll take y'all's words on the Japanese study overreaching the scope of their usefulness.

 

A recent study published on BPA's effects on humans found that workers exposed to BPA at Chinese factories had more than four times the risk of erection difficulties.

from my source above.

The article seems to interpret this one too liberally as well though, since this was probably studied using surveys at different locations which means there is little control of extraneous variables.

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@wolfie:

 

gene thing: but we don't use the genes in the same way (alt splicing, regulation factors, etc), hence why mice aren't used as clear proof that the same something is happening in humans.

 

An extreme example of such splicing is: In my euk class, my teacher gave a freaky example where a fly gene (DSCAM) can potentially be translated into 38016 different forms of one protein. o_o!

 

Also, note that the japanese experiment was where they just fed milk rather than manipulate genes.

 

Genes manipulation is a stronger suggestion because you can find find homologs of genes (genes similar in both humans and mice) and manipulate them accordingly. If you knock out the mice gene (which is similar to human genes) than it suggests that you will probably get similar results in humans. (for example, knock out an eye gene homolog and you'll probably get blind mice and humans). its deceptively straightforward Obviously its not since mice and humans genomes are different and we use it differently, but its a stronger suggestion in general. There's fewer variables (age, sex, etc) to worry about since you're manipulating the source directly.

 

That's probably why mice work well to study inherited genetic diseases. (genetic disease= gene mutation=knock out the mice genes that are homologs of human genes so get the appropriate diseased mice to study)

 

But feeding milk: there's no gene manipulation going on and no homologs to work off. The factors that affected humans (growth, race, age, medical history, etc) comes into play for the mice (the whole mice =/= human is a major part) so its a weak suggestion.

 

Also, canta didn't give anymore information on the japanese one regarding: how much milk was given daily and what type of milk. what was their diet to begin with. how old were the mice. what type of mice were they. how large of a study we're talking about, etc.

 

its gets weaker if you start thinking about how much milk daily the mouse takes equates to how much a human would need to drink. how long that equates. etc.

 

Okay, i hope that wordy convoluted explanation made any type of sense. XD

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